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astearns
trackbot, start meeting
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» trackbot is preparing a teleconference.
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RRSAgent
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trackbot
RRSAgent, make logs public
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RRSAgent
I have made the request, trackbot
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trackbot
Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
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trackbot
Date: 13 February 2019
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astearns
present+
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dauwhe
present+
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dael
present+ dael
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dael
ScribeNick: dael
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melanierichards
present+
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bdc
present+
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oriol
present+
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antenna
present+
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dael
astearns: We'll give people a few more minutes
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antonp
Present+ antonp
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florian
present+ florian
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dbaron
present+
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tgraham
present+
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rachelandrew
present+
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dael
astearns: I think we should get started
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jensimmons
present+
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plinss[m]
present+
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leaverou
present+
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dael
astearns: First thing, are there any changes to the agenda anyone would like to make?
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chris
present+
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dino
present+
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» dino reluctantly
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dael
astearns: Housekeeping- we have a F2F coming up. If you haven't put your name on the wiki as attending or regrets please do. And look at the agenda.
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dael
Topic: minmax(auto,min-content) under a max-content constraint
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dael
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» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #3565 ([css-grid] minmax(auto,min-content) under a max-content constraint).
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emilio
present+
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dael
astearns: Discussed last week. Sounds like the one thing waiting on is the verbiage for what to do when spans >1
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svoisen
present+
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dael
astearns: Is fantasai on yet?
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Rossen
present+
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dael
astearns: Is there anyone else who wanted to go over last week's discussion or have anything new?
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dael
astearns: Rossen it sounds like on this item we were waiting to resolve on fantasai addressing a comment from Mats. She did in the issue. Should we call for resolution?
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jensimmons
oh sorry — I was totally confused. I thought you were asking for new agenda items for the call still… SORRY. That’s what I get for doing more than thing at the same time
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» astearns no worries
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dael
oriol: fantasai proposed edits and they're not yet in the spec. I had some complaints against them and they need to be tweaked a bit. It would be better to discuss with fantasai
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dael
fantasai: I'm here
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dael
astearns: oriol did you want to discuss on the call or do it in the issue?
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» florian wonders what "sidebar" means as a verb
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» astearns 'a discussion held out of earshot' - sorry
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dael
oriol: I wrote them in the issue. mostly it was that fantasai proposed to clamp as an upper limit that's the maximum of value. I thought it would make more sense to sum values rather than max of them. Some other minor corrections that maybe can be in github before making edits
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TabAtkins
present+
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dael
fantasai: It's a max instead of sum because we want it to just fit within the number of tracks it spans. If it spans 50px and then one that's min-content we want it to fit in 50px plus whatever is left. If we add to it the 50px we're giving it more space then it needs
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» TabAtkins the topic hasn't been updated
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Rossen
just a sed
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dael
astearns: It sounds to me that there are 2 issues. THe one on the agenda and another that has some ramifications on this one?
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Rossen
sec... having problem connecting on the phone
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dael
florian: I think ramifications are a follow up to the thing on the agenda
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dael
oriol: The item in the agenda was for the non-spanning case and Mats wanted to handle spanning case as a generalization of this and it make it more complicated
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dael
astearns: Okay, thank you
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dael
astearns: I could see two ways going forward. One is figure out the ins and outs of spanning case on the call. Sounds like discussion is between fantasai and oriol so might not be most efficient. Other is resolve on accepting these edits and if needed open a second issue for spanning case
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dael
fantasai: Can resolve on principle of handling min content track sizes as a clamp on automatic sizes in a similar way fixed sizes are a clamp
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dael
astearns: Make sense oriol ?
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dael
oriol: Yes
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AmeliaBR
present+
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dael
astearns: We're asking for 2 resolutions? One to accept the edits proposed in the issue and second is on principle?
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dael
fantasai: Just principle. Deal with the edits in the issue that is open on that
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dael
astearns: Issue on agenda needs resolution. Is resolving on the principle sufficient?
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dael
fantasai: I think so
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dael
astearns: Prop: Close the issue by resolving we will handlemin content track sizes as a clamp on automatic sizes
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dael
astearns: Objections?
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dael
Rossen: This is on #3565?
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dael
falken: Yes
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dael
s/ falken /fantasai
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dael
Rossen: sgtm
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dael
RESOLVED: we will handle min-content track sizes as a clamp on automatic sizes
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dael
Topic: jensimmons item
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dael
jensimmons: I've started working on CSS remedy project. It's a replacement for the normalized style sheet and css reset. devs use them to help them when getting started with a project.
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jensimmons
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dael
jensimmons: One of the things I found facinating when joining group is we can't make the default the best value because we can't break compat. THe propose of css remedy is to collect those bits to give best practices rather then old compat.
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dael
jensimmons: Some of you have been involved and I'd love more interest. Mostly we're discussing on issue. It could have a lot of traction. Already 1000 people visited on github. We'll hopefully have it out in April or May.
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dael
astearns: Anyone want to add anything? Or we can keep this informative
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dael
florian: People should participate. I do and if you don't want me to be wrong you should come correct me
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dael
Topic: outline on ::selection
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dael
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jensimmons
Thanks for letting me announce that! Thanks astearns !
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dael
fantasai: currently outline applies. I tried to add a definition but it's not that simple and I don't think anyone impl. Does anyone want this? If not we can drop it. It's able selection as well as spell check.
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dael
dbaron: I wouldn't know how to define it so happy to remove
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fantasai
s/able/about/
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dael
florian: use cases I'm aware of don't call or it so I'm okay
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dael
astearns: Anyone want to keep it?
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fremy
+1 drop it
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dael
astearns: Prop: Remove outline from list of supported styles on ::selection
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dael
astearns: Obj?
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florian
s/I'm aware of/I care about/
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dael
RESOLVED: Remove outline from list of supported styles on ::selection
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dael
Topic: Should Element.pseudo("unknown") be an error or return null?
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dael
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» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #3603 ([css-pseudo-4] Should Element.pseudo("unknown") be an error or return null?).
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dael
fantasai: Somewhat related to #3607about identity of the pseudo
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dael
leaverou: Does it present null in any other case? If it's not defined at all does it return null?
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dael
fantasai: That's an open question
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dael
leaverou: In general errors meandev have to handle. But we needto be able to distinguish doesn't exist and not defined. Feature detection needs to be possible
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fantasai
Questions:
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dael
fantasai: Open questions are should element.pseudo always return same object even if you removet he style that generated it? Other is if it doesn't exist in box tree do we get an object back? When we request something that doesn't exist b/c not supported what do we return?
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dael
TabAtkins: Addressed first question last week. Keeping objected identity stable is useful. Question of what to we return when before doesn't have a property and can you fiddle with an object. Second question, we do need to distinguish between a pseudo that doesn't exist and one that isn't valid. I don't think it's useful to return null if a pseduo element doesn't exist on an element. Perhaps a bool to say if it exists or not
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dael
TabAtkins: The for the unknown thing where you put ::foo it should throw an error. Even thought CSS style sheets can be forgiving, JS APIs shoudl throw in clear error cases.
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florian
q+
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» Zakim sees florian on the speaker queue
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dael
fremy: I think it makes sense to return an object all the time. On the error part I'm less sure b/c we'll have compat issues and errors can cause entire thing not to work. Less sure but understand arguement
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dael
leaverou: It's impossible in JS to tell if it's that the element doesn't exist or something else went wrong. You can sort of guess but not be sure
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dael
TabAtkins: We can return different types of errors. We don't throw that many errors and you can tell from type. Message will usually let you know what's going on
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dael
leaverou: From console, but can't programatically detect
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dael
TabAtkins: But there'sone error it can cause
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dael
leaverou: What about the future
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bkardell_
present+
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dael
florian: With this if you start nesting and I don't know if that's same error as asking for a pseudo that doesn't exist
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florian
q-
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» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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dael
TabAtkins: Can't ask for a pseudo on a pseudo
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bradk
present+
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dael
fantasai: I think if we're deciding element returns null when it doesn't exist it makes sense, but if we're not we should return an error
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dael
astearns: Sounded like 3 parts to TabAtkins summary. 1) always return
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dael
TabAtkins: the same object for a give element/pseudo element pair
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TabAtkins
1. Always return the same object for a given (element, pseudo-element) pair.
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dael
astearns: Always return same object. Return an object for when a element exists
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leaverou
Btw a historical case that may help: In old IE, element.style[foo] would error if the value was invalid. This was very widely considered as annoying by developers, until eventually IE changed and stopped throwing.
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dael
fremy: That means you need ot keep object for lifetime of element. You could have to store a gazillion objects which you don't need. I would have to check
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dael
florian: Garbage detected?
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dbaron
s/detected/collected/
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dael
s/fremy/emilio
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leaverou
s/element.style[foo]/setting element.style.foo/
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dael
emilio: I guess it's not observable. Any other that does the same?
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dbaron
(discussion about the element keeping a weak reference)
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dael
fremy: [missed] if you drop the reference it's garbage collected and you get the new one
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dael
fremy: Not possible to notice because you don't have anywhere to join
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fremy
s/join/compare to/
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dael
TabAtkins: If you ask for a ready promise those are cached and you're not calling because ready state has not changed. That sort of retention of objects is not uncommon
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dael
emilio: font face it's one object and this could be many objects. If it's a problem we can face it
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dael
TabAtkins: If you're iterating the entire tree, that's weird
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dael
emilio: I've seen people do it
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dael
florian: Pseudo with a certain style, you look at all
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dael
fantasai: One thing we could do is return null if doesn't exist on element. If at any point it does exist browser has to maintain the reference. Function might return null or that object, but never another. SO if pseudo element at some point exists you keep that reference.
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dael
TabAtkins: psueod element does exist- if there isn't css setting the before would we return null when asking for the before pseudo
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dael
emilio: Also what happens when display on sub tree? I don't know
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fremy
+1 to what TabAtkins just said
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dael
TabAtkins: I'm unhappy with it because it means you can't use this API to toggle a pseudo element on. You have to go through normal css which is a more complicated redirection. Sounds good but messes up too much
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dael
plinss[m]: Isn't that a feature? SHould we be able to create pseudo not backed by css?
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dael
fantasai: Currently has a .style that allows you to set and have it exist.
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Rossen
q+
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» Zakim sees Rossen on the speaker queue
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dael
fantasai: Interesting thing is to plinss[m] point you can't serialize that back out. WE have style that will serialize out for .style, but not for a pseudo element.
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dael
TabAtkins: If we accept nesting proposal style auto upgrades to be able to support that. Have to define, but you can embed a nested style in the style attribute. There's a route to make it serializable
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astearns
ack Rossen
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» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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emilio
Rossen++
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dbaron
Another maybe-silly option is a null/undefined distinction, if you want to think of .pseudo() as sort of like a shorthand for a long list of DOM properties (where undefined means "not implemented" or "the browser doesn't know about it" and null means "known but not present")
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dael
Rossen: Question- Is anyone working with any DOM or HTML folks on this? Curious to their PoV. Sounds like a pretty overarching API that we should be working with at least DOM folks. I'd hate to see something like this worked on for so long and then go back to square one.
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dael
Rossen: Perhaps with an envoy it would be good to get their PoV
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dael
emilio: We can ask for feedback
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TabAtkins
dbaron, I don't see a good reason to return undefined vs throwing, tho.
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dael
fantasai: Would like to try and resolve and we can reopen if they give feedback and get a publication out to request a review
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AmeliaBR
If we accept Tab's "route to serialization" by allowing pseudo-element styles in the inline style of the main element, doesn't that also open up a "route to dynamically generating a pseudo-element" by declaring a `style="::before{content:"text"}` on the parent element's style object?
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dael
astearns: Would be nice, but not sure I'm hearing consensus
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dael
astearns: I agree figuring this stuff out does make this issue about a non-existent pseudo...how we answer all these questions does make a difference on how we address this particular issue
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fantasai
AmeliaBR, only if you escape those quotes properly :)
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TabAtkins
`style="&::before{content:'text'}"`, but yes
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dael
Rossen: I'm hearing a lot more questions then suggested answers. Doesn't suggest you're ready to resolve. If we're looking to push an updated version of spec I don't thinkw e need to rush a decision
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dael
astearns: Issue on the agenda is just unknown pseudo elements. Are there other issues for psuedos that can hop on and off of existance?
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fantasai
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» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
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dael
fantasai: #3607
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dael
astearns: Gotcha
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fantasai
That transcript misses some of Tab's follow-up comments
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» fantasai grabs the real minutes
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dael
astearns: Not happy to not resolve, but I don't think we have a plan. What about we come up with a proposal for both issues, discuss at F2F, come to a decision there. We use time up to F2F to reach out to DOM people and anyone else that would have real input on what to decide
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» florian appreciates astearns' appetite for resolving on things and pushing us to get to a closure
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dael
Topic: Mark unimplemented CSSPseudoElement features at-risk
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dael
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» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #3540 ([css-pseudo-4] Mark unimplemented CSSPseudoElement features at-risk).
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dael
fantasai: Suggestion is mark things unimplemented or drop them if no one plans to implement. No one place to impl style method. Other question is which pseudo elements do we want to support. ::selection or jsut those that generate boxes? Moz only supports ::before and ::after
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dael
astearns: I don't have an opinion as to which we have to support. I noticed when reading spec there are lots of others in the spec not mentioned here. It would be nice to havea note as to why others are omitted
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dael
fantasai: I suggest we trim spec to subset moz supports unless anyone intends to implement?
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leaverou
if it only supports a subset of supported pseudo-elements, that's yet another reason to not throw when other pseudos are used that are supported by the browser but not by that API
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dael
astearns: Obj to trim set supports to ::before and ::after?
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dael
fantasai: And no style
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dael
astearns: Objections to either
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dael
RESOLVED: Drop style from this level, restrict API to ::before and ::after, add a note to why the other things are not yet supported
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dael
fremy: Begs question to what we should do for other things browser supports. WE should say what to do with other stuff.
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dael
fantasai: Yeah
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dael
astearns: Can you add a comment to the other issue mentioning we should define that?
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tantek
present+
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dael
fremy: I can
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» tantek RRSAgent, pointer?
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» tantek no not on queue
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dael
Topic: Clarification on prefers-color-scheme issues
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dael
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» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #3278 ([mediaqueries-5] Clarification on prefers-color-scheme issues).
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Rossen
ah, misread the log...
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dael
emilio: Bascally, people are about to ship this MQ. There were unsolved issues. Should be straightforward
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dael
emilio: One is what should MQ evaluate in boolean context.
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dael
florian: It's defined in spec. If there's disagreement to what's defined I'm happy to hear it
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dael
emilio: Peoplediscussing on issue, but if spec says that's fine
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dael
florian: Same as no preference
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dael
dino: It makes using that form almost useless. You can't derrive meaning from it. If the query is prefers color scheme it will eval to true if they picked on
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dael
fantasai: Not prefers color scheme is interesting though. Makes it shorter to type out.
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dael
dino: You save 5 characters
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dael
TabAtkins: Prefers color scheme and not is clearly you either do or don't. It makes it this thing exists or doesn't and that's what null communicates
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AmeliaBR
`@media not (prefers-color-scheme)` and `@media (prefers-color-scheme: no-preference)` make sense as equivalents, to me.
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dael
emilio: Other question is if it should match light on print or if that's too smart
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dael
dino: That is another issue
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dael
astearns: I hadn't read the entire thread on #3278. Is that only what to do in boolean context?
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dael
emilio: Yeah
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dbaron
do existing implementations follow that answer?
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dael
astearns: Sounds like we have an answer. @media prefers-color-scheme is the same as null
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dael
astearns: It sounded like dino found it useless
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dbaron
(sorry, I can't unmute since the machine I'm dialed in on is semi-frozen thanks to yesterday's Windows update...)
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dael
dino: I don't know why you'd use it, but it does follow behavior so it's fine
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dael
TabAtkins: Yes, we're looking for consistency in how other MQs are handled
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dael
astearns: Prop: Close this issue no change, it is defined in spec. dbaron asked in IRC if impl match this
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dael
florian: I think we're light on tests
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» fremy @dbaron: It's maybe because Redmond is frozen as well right now :D
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dael
dino: We don' have any no-preference option
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dael
??: I think blink is one that would have to change
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dael
emilio: Blink matches
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dael
dino: We should contribute tests for this. not sure how you can test user choice
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dael
florian: That's always the problem with testing MQs.
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dael
TabAtkins: Generally they're all manual tests. They're very hard
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dael
dino: Internally we have JS API only exposed in test system to set user preference for that page. Would be nice if al browsers could standardize on an API to do things like this. Would cover media style but nice if pointer events and touch events and that type of thing. Not for this WG I guess
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fantasai
sgtm
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dael
astearns: Sounds like there's consensus to close this issue and take what's in the spec currently. Objections?
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» fantasai replying to astearns
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dael
RESOLVED: Close this issue no change, there is already language in the spec
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dael
Topic: prefers-color-scheme and printing
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dael
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» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #3522 ([css-mediaqueries] prefers-color-scheme and printing).
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dael
emilio: Somebody asked if prefers color scheme should always be light web printing. Seems reasonableand I think it's what webkit does. BUt author can already check that. Should we define this?
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AmeliaBR
It sounds like something that the browser should include in their Print UI, just like turning off background images.
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AmeliaBR
(AKA, what Florian is saying)
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dael
florian: Feels like something up to UA. Seems reasonable UA choice to switch to light when prining. I think a checkbox in the print pop up is also reasonable as well. Saying UA can have a different preference sounds good, but forcing light is overkill
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dael
fantasai: I think suggest UA returns light when prining
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tantek
yes that seems reasonable
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dael
TabAtkins: What's returned is 100% UA determined, but most of the time you want light when printing. Have a note that this may vary on various factors, but printing should default to light
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dael
emilio: You might want dark if printing a PDF, but that's something the UA can expose. I'm happy to default to light
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emilio
s/emilio/dino
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dael
fantasai: Suggest if you expect to print to paper you should indicate a preference for white. Doesn't necessarily mean PDFs should default to light
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dael
astearns: Prop: Do not have any normative text about this. Add a note encouraging UAs to think about what should be done for printing and to use light when they know printing to paper
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dael
astearns: Objections?
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Rossen
unless the paper is black... :)
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dael
RESOLVED: Do not have any normative text about this. Add a note encouraging UAs to think about what should be done for printing and to use light when they know printing to paper
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dael
Topic: Empty grid tracks should contribute to scrollable overflow
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dael
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» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #3638 ([css-grid-1] Empty grid tracks should contribute to scrollable overflow).
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dael
astearns: Short intro to this topic
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dael
fantasai: Filed by someone using empty grid tracks. It was showing...it's in a scrollable grid container and spacing left by empty ttracks not showing in FF b/c different interpretations. Should scrollable overflow area of grid container be only big enought ot cotnaint elements or big enough for entire explicit grid. It's an abstraction that's not a box
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dael
TabAtkins: Grid exists like flex lines. It's not a thing in thebox tree
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dael
fantasai: Argument against is impl that's the only thing that's real. Authors expect inluding all grid tracks
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dael
Rossen: A grid element that itself is overflow scroll?
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dael
fantasai: A grid container that's overflow:scroll with a bunch of tracks and some items in it.
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dael
TabAtkins: Items in the grid fit within the visible area, but tracks don't. Scrollbar or no?
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dael
jensimmons: Super itneresting. If authors have extra tracks I think they would expect to scroll
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dael
rachelandrew: Authors would expect a scrollbar. They expect the grid to be real
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dael
plinss[m]: Would you expect it to size to explicit grid lines if it's not overflow:scroll?
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dael
fantasai: It does
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dael
plinss[m]: Bheavior should be consistent
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dael
Rossen: Are you saying the intrinsic size of the grid is the extent for scrolling?
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dael
plinss[m]: Yes
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dael
astearns: We're at time. That's an intro for this issue. It's an interesting one and we should discuss in the future.
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dael
Topic: end
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dael
astearns: Thanks everyone for calling in and we'll talk next week
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TabAtkins
I forgot that we size it to the grid by default. I think that's a reasonable argument for letting the grid be part of overflow.
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astearns
trackbot, end meeting
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» trackbot is ending a teleconference.
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trackbot
Zakim, list attendees
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Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been astearns, dauwhe, dael, melanierichards, bdc, oriol, antenna, antonp, florian, dbaron, tgraham, rachelandrew, jensimmons, plinss[m],
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Zakim
... leaverou, chris, dino, emilio, svoisen, Rossen, TabAtkins, AmeliaBR, bkardell_, bradk, tantek
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trackbot
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
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RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate
w3.org/2019/02/13-css-minutes.html trackbot
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trackbot
RRSAgent, bye
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RRSAgent
I see no action items
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» Zakim excuses himself; his presence no longer seems to be needed