-
fantasai
good morning heycam|away !
-
fantasai
or afternoon or whtaever
-
» fantasai isn't sure what time it is over there
-
Rossen_
Zakim, start meeting
-
Zakim
RRSAgent, make logs Public
-
RRSAgent
I have made the request, Zakim
-
Zakim
Meeting: Cascading Style Sheets (CSS) Working Group Teleconference
-
Rossen_
present+ Rossen Atanassov, Microsoft
-
» florian can't get in, and wonders if he's just too early, or if he's trying the wrong URL
-
alisonmaher
present+
-
cbiesinger
present+
-
castastrophe
present+
-
Rossen_
present+ Rossen Atanassov
-
jfkthame
present+
-
astearns
present+
-
AmeliaBR
present+
-
dholbert
present+
-
faceless2
I don't seem be able to join on video? I enter the code (***-dama-***) but then am told no-one else is here...
-
oriol
present+
-
dholbert
faceless2, doing that same thing worked for me FWIW
-
TabAtkins
present+
-
faceless2
present+
-
TabAtkins
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
-
TabAtkins
Topic: Should ::first-letter include space separator?
-
Rossen_
github:https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5154
-
» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #5154 ([css-pseudo-4] ::first-letter should include space separators).
-
drousso
present+
-
tantek
present+
-
TabAtkins
astearns: We got the examples tantek was asking for
-
» tantek RRSAgent, pointer?
-
-
TabAtkins
astearns: For Norwegian and the other language [French, I think], it makes sense to add those space separators, since they're in the markup
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
astearns: A little afraid of turning it on for other langs, becuase if you have an open-quote and capital letter, and all you want is the quote itself, maybe people are adding spaces to create the separation currently?
-
TabAtkins
florian: I think dauwhe said they were inserting spaces to adjust visual separation for English content, so they would want the space included.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: I tried to do a little more research as well.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: Didn't have time to upload
-
TabAtkins
[shows Elements of Typographic STyle]
-
TabAtkins
tantek: ON p64, there's some first-letter effects with leading punct, including with guillarmes
-
TabAtkins
tantek: So the point I'm making here is that it's not the entire thing is the first letter, it's that the punctuation is skipped over, only the letter is embiggened, then the punct is situated next to it.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: So I'm concerned we might be doing the wrong thing.
-
TabAtkins
astearns: There's a separate issue addressing that layout, and the current suggestion to get that addressed requires the punct to be part of the ::first-letter
-
AmeliaBR
q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
tantek: Ok [shows an example in English too]. Maybe we should consider these issues together.
-
fantasai
It's issue 2040
-
TabAtkins
astearns: I'll drop it in the minutes.
-
» tantek also didn't see the queue, apologies
-
Rossen_
ack fantasai
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: So this is about whether we include the space *when* there is a quotation mark, not about the quotation mark itself.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: If we want French and English to be the same, we need to include it.
-
astearns
there is also
w3c/csswg-drafts #4988 for changing size of components of initial-letter
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: As astearns said, 2040 is about the formatting question if you want the punct and letter different.
-
tantek
q?
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Richard said we didn't need to include U+0020 space, becuase the spaces used here are typically other spaces, not the standard word separator.
-
florian
q+ to comment on U+0020
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR, florian on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: So if we're really concerned, we cna exclude u+0020 and only include the other spaces.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: And note that the punct by itself wont' be picked up as a ::first-letter anyway; you need a letter.
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: I'm not sure about ignoring u+0020, lots of people will type this with a stadnard space
-
Rossen_
ack AmeliaBR
-
» Zakim sees florian on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai notes that Lea and Chris will be there once Zoe goes to sleep
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: But probably the more exotic spaces can be ignored.
-
chris_
present+
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: The one common thing from tantek's examples, and some in the issue, where the initial punct is different than the letter, they all have the letter as big. So to do that, we at least need the characters up to the letter to be included.
-
chris_
rrsagent, here
-
RRSAgent
-
fantasai
Anyone who's fussy about typography will use the correct space, I think :)
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: If we dont' come up with a special solution for people who want the punct to be offset or smaller, there's always the option of people including spans to mark off certain characters.
-
Rossen_
ack florian
-
Zakim
florian, you wanted to comment on U+0020
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
tantek
if I paste this here does it work?
w3c/csswg-drafts #2040
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
TabAtkins
florian: Good guides about typography will say to use various spaces, but most people dont' know how to type those.
-
astearns
I think we should allow the regular space, even though I'm fussy about typography
-
TabAtkins
florian: At least in French, it's pretty common to say ordinary spaces, probably same in Norwegian. So I'd include standard space.
-
Rossen_
q?
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
tantek: My concern is that if we just flip this on, we'll cause pages that have not been tested with this to suddenly have first-letters that didn't before.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: And end up with big punctuation as well as big letters.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: That might come as a surprise to authors who are used to not doing that automatically.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: And I'm not sure it's the right default.
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
tantek: So if it is punct-space-letter, maybe the letter itself should be the only thing included as the ::first-letter, and the pucnt gets normal inline styling.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: That would look closer tothe typography examples.
-
florian
q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai, florian on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
tantek: I'm concerned we have yet another place where we do the wrong thing typographically by default.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: The web has a tradition of this, liek the way large text messes up the line rhythm.
-
chris_
so now we need a term for "the characters before the first actual letter"?
-
TabAtkins
tantek: So I'm concerned if we add one more papercut.
-
fantasai
chris_, we need a pseudo-element, yes :)
-
TabAtkins
q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai, florian, TabAtkins on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
tantek: 5154 shows what browsers are currently doing
-
TabAtkins
tantek: There's an example with th eleading quote... [missed]
-
Rossen_
ack fantasai
-
» Zakim sees florian, TabAtkins on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: I think tantek is getting caught up in the not-perfect
-
astearns
in the examples provided for this issue, the punctuation *does* take the same styling as the letter:
w3c/csswg-drafts #5154#issuecomment-659129316
-
chris_
::first-letter-before
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: I think you're forgetting that English and French punct have the same problem and have to be treated the same way
-
Rossen_
ack florian
-
» Zakim sees TabAtkins on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: We need to include the space to keep these on-par, and having them be inconsistent is bad
-
TabAtkins
florian: Having ::firs-tletter select the letter and not the preceding punct seems bad, it's already complicated, sounds scary.
-
fantasai
s/bad/bad and doesn't solve those problems anyway/
-
TabAtkins
florian: As to compat, Safari does it already. So there's some amount of content out there probably already depending on it.
-
florian
-
TabAtkins
florian: So in this example we actually do want the included thing to be large.
-
TabAtkins
florian: In other cases we wont' want the punct large, but those apply equally to the exisdting punct-letter without space.
-
» fantasai can
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: Florian touched on it at the end, one of the big concerns Tantek brought up
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: is wanting to address differently-sized punctuation wrt first-letter
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: But that's already the case. If there's no space, we already have that problem, already have to solve it.
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: It's not relevant to this issue.
-
Rossen_
ack TabAtkins
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: So I think there were several reasons for ahving this, including some existing shipping impls
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: So it's probably not a compat risk, or at least not a big one.
-
tantek
q+
-
» Zakim sees tantek on the speaker queue
-
Rossen_
ack tantek
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
tantek: I don't actuallys ee the Safari example as proof of no compat problem
-
TabAtkins
tantek: Safari applies all th epunct as well.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: It wouldn't surprise me if there's special-casing going on here, looks like impl by accident.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: Looking at an example with a massive preceding dash.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: It woudlnt' surprise me if people are already not giving that styling to Safari to avoid that problem.
-
TabAtkins
astearns: Also in CHrome
-
AmeliaBR
Slight tangent, but while testing I discovered that browsers treat quotes in the markup different from quotes inserted via `::before { content: open-quote }`. Is that expected, or just part of all the bugs?
-
TabAtkins
tantek: Ok. So that's a bug, and I dont' thinkw e should be designing based on a bug.
-
Rossen_
q
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
florian: We're not saying it's a bug, we're saying it's desirable.
-
» fantasai if the compat problem isn't a concern can we just fix this and move on?
-
TabAtkins
tantek: I'm talking justa bout the hyphen.
-
TabAtkins
tantek: Because of that I think authors might be picking different techniques. So maybe we dont' have a compat problem at all then, because nobody's using it.
-
TabAtkins
florian: If there is a real compat problem we'll find tou and revisit
-
TabAtkins
faceless2: The big hyphen was actually a desired effect
-
faceless2
-
florian
s/tou/out/
-
TabAtkins
tantek: I'm convinced by the examples, we shoudl do this, but we should make it dependent on solving 2040
-
TabAtkins
tantek: That would be my compromise proposal
-
TabAtkins
tantek: I think this group can solve that.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: We need to do one thing at a time. These are two separate features that happen to work together.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: So let's just get opening quotes working the same between langs.
-
leaverou
present+
-
TabAtkins
tantek: They're both ::first-letter
-
TabAtkins
[back and forth]
-
Rossen_
q?
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
astearns
+1 to resolving on this now
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: Today, a single quote and no space, will be combined together.
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: and the quote won't be sized "correctly" in that case either.
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: Okay, so it sounds like people are all okay with the proposal as it exists. Tantek, you had an objection based on no examples; we now have those. Do you still object?
-
TabAtkins
tantek: I strongly prefer that we make this resolution dependent on 2040, but I won't object.
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: So any objections?
-
TabAtkins
RESOLVED: Spaces separating punct from first letter dont' stop ::first-letter
-
» fantasai query TabAtkins
-
» tantek defers to current agenda
-
» TabAtkins need to /query me, not /me query ^_^
-
TabAtkins
Topic: Define em-top and em-bottom baselines
-
-
» TabAtkins AmeliaBR, I suspect that's a bug
-
fantasai
-
» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #5312 ([css-inline-3] Define em-top and em-bottom baselines).
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: The canvas API has a handful of metrics that it allows getters for
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: They decided to defer to CSS Inline for their definitions
-
fantasai
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: We ahve a section in css-inline which defines a bunch of metrics, their opentype equivs
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: They're taking a dependency on ascent and descent metrics for the purpose of font bounding box
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: There's another metric in this canvas spec that we dont' have a definition for in the CSS spec
-
fantasai
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: So I propose we include that
-
fantasai
fontBoundingBoxAscent/Descent
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Those map to our ascent/descent
-
fantasai
emHeightAscent/Descent
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Then there's the em height ascent/desent
-
fantasai
"highest top of the em squares in the inline box"
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Which don't have a definition in HTML; the deifnition is "to the highest top of the em squares in the inline box", and I'm not sure what that really means
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: So the proposal is we define that metric, so the canvas api spec can hook into it
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Even if we don't end up using the metric in our own spec
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: I talked to jfkthame about what he thinks the metric should be
-
AmeliaBR
+1 for keeping all definitions in one place
-
fantasai
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Idea is [in the issue]
-
fantasai
Proposed definition from me and @jfkthame is:
-
fantasai
if the ideographic-top + ideographic-bottom or ideographic-central baselines are defined by the font, emHeightAscent is 0.5em above the ideographic-central and emHeightDescent is 0.5em below. (This will normally make ideographic-top = emHeightAscent and ideographic-bottom = emHeightDescent, but if ideographic-top and ideographic-bottom are not 1em apart it will normalize the distance to 1em)
-
fantasai
if none of the ideographic baselines are defined, use the ascent and descent normalized proportionally so they add up to 1em
-
» TabAtkins hate it when i miss an important word and pause waiting for context to fix it, and then context never does and I've just lost five seconds of talking...
-
TabAtkins
florian: So dont' use the actual size, but use the proportions?
-
TabAtkins
faceless2: Lots of fonts dont' have these metrics add up to 1, so normalizing is important
-
Rossen_
q?
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: So looks like midpoint of ascent/descent, then .5em both ways.
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: So it might be larger or smaller than ascent/descent if they weren't 1em apart originally?
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Yes. And bias toward the ideographic lines if they exist, they're more likely to be 1em apart
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: They're also more likely to be in the center of where the ink falls, because they're centrally painted
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: It works out well for CJK, and it works out fine for other writing system so long as these metrics are halfway reasonably defined.
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: Koji, any opinion on this?
-
TabAtkins
koji: I generally support defining this.
-
TabAtkins
koji: Been discussing with our canvas team aobut it
-
TabAtkins
koji: Tehy're not really well-defined
-
» astearns tiny bit of spec history: whatwg terms were originally fontBoundingBoxAscending/Descending until I jumped in and asked Hixie for changes
-
TabAtkins
koji: How to do it, I think we need more investigation/discussion.
-
TabAtkins
koji: I'm asking in the issue some questions, and not sure what the correct way to define it is yet.
-
TabAtkins
koji: So no concrete proposal yet, but think we need more investigation to make this move.
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: If the current approach is something we can resolve for now, and then refine as we go if we identify it's not the precise math we need...
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: I think there's alignment behind exposing these metrics and roughly defining them as suggested
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: Possibly with tweaks as we adjust
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: Are you against that?
-
TabAtkins
koji: Not all my questions are answered yet. Like, font top metric is visual, but we probably need to support vertical flow.
-
Rossen_
q?
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: I think elika just answered that in the issue about 30s ago.
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: What is the actual use-case for these metrics? ARe we expecting people to use them to draw boxes around their text?
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: Knowing that might inform what a useful definition is.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: I think they'll be used to position the text.
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: There are more and more solutions taking a dependency on canvas today for word-like or excel-liek apps
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: So more and more need doing higher-fidelity typography thru canvas
-
TabAtkins
iank_: The exact use-cases are basically "everything youc an imagine someone wanting to do when laying out text". It's pretty broad.
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: Right, the question is what this adds to the existing terms, and is this proposed dfn solving what's needed?
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: I don't know, bc I don't know what the people who added this metric were thinking about.
-
Rossen_
q?
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Well the current ascent/descent metrics aren't interoperable, so one thing this adds is a consistent answer for something ascent/descent-like.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: The font metrics used for these differ depending on browser/OS currently.
-
jfkthame
q+
-
» Zakim sees jfkthame on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: So at least in cases where we have ideographic metrics, we can get a consistent cross-platform answer here.
-
TabAtkins
koji: This wouldn't be interoperable, right? It relies on ascent/descent.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Yeah, it's just closer to interop.
-
TabAtkins
koji: Is Gecko okay to change to match this?
-
Rossen_
ack jfkthame
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
jfkthame: I think we'd be fine with this, it's fairly close to what Gecko already does.
-
TabAtkins
jfkthame: I think omst of the use-cases are better served by canvas's ascent/descent metrics, but those don't necessarily add up to 1em, and there's a legacy expectation that canvas text baseline has a top/bottom values which are specified to be the top and bottom of the em square.
-
TabAtkins
jfkthame: I think there's a legit expectation for those to be 1em apart.
-
TabAtkins
jfkthame: But it's not clear where the text falls in the em square if ascent+descent doesn't equal 1em.
-
TabAtkins
jfkthame: So that's where this normalization comes in, giving a sensible definition to where the em square is
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: Do we know what current word formatters do in this case?
-
TabAtkins
koji: There's one definition in opentype saying the ideographic em box with almost the same algo proposed here
-
TabAtkins
koji: Except opentype says it only exists for cjk fonts, and it's udnefined otherwise
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: Is it a problem to define it for non-cjk?
-
TabAtkins
koji: We tried to do some work there. When we used platform ascent/descent, it was quite bad
-
TabAtkins
koji: We then used [s-type?] ascent/descent, we use that for underline position.
-
TabAtkins
koji: we probably need more heuristic investigations
-
fantasai
s/s-type?/sTypo/
-
TabAtkins
koji: In canvas we dont' ahve font cascading, right?
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
koji: So if we define this in CSS, this is okay for the primary font, but going to the fallback algo would be bad. I'm concerned about that.
-
TabAtkins
AmeliaBR: Canvas does do font fallback like CSS does.
-
» fantasai q-
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: So looking for progress.
-
castastrophe
I have to drop for a meeting, back online around noon
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: I'm happy to put a note in saying that these metrics are for canvas, and not meant for CSS.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: I think we should add the terms and dfns, and note we dont' plan to use them in CSS.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: And then if there are changes to the algo needed, we can address that in further issues.
-
chris_
Rossen, for the CSS OM Color item, Lea and I would like to present our work before the discussion opens up. About 10 minutes should do it. [10:56] == Rossen is away: Away
-
TabAtkins
RESOLVED: Accept the addition of the terms with the current proposed definitions.
-
TabAtkins
<br dur=15m>, right?
-
TabAtkins
Topic: end
-
-
» fantasai suggests at least one of Lea or Chris be muted at all times
-
» astearns or sit next to each other and only use one mic
-
» chris_ switching to Lea's connection
-
» fantasai faceless2, want to introduce? :)
-
TabAtkins
Topic: initial-letter alignment with overflow:sunk
-
Rossen_
github:https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/5329
-
» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/csswg-drafts #5329 ([css-inline-3] Initial-letter alignment when 'over-sunk').
-
fantasai
s/overflow:sunk/over-sunk letter/
-
smfr
s/with overflow:sunk/when over-sunk/
-
» AmeliaBR I was wondering when we added a new overflow value…
-
» smfr got scared for a minute there thinking there was a new kind of overflow
-
TabAtkins
faceless2: When you have an initial-letter smaller than the space given, how do you align it within that gap?
-
TabAtkins
faceless2: Existing spec aligns it to the bottom, elika proposes we change it to the top
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: It fixes a use-case I had for indic scripts, and the OP's case which is Latin
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: The proposal is to do this when the size is less than the sink value.
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: If size is > sink, we want to align to the bottom metric, because we want the top of the letter to be above th eparagraph
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: But when size < sink, we align to the top metric so we're pulling up
-
TabAtkins
florian: And the initial dfn just only considered one case and we forgot the secon dhalf?
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: pretty mcuh
-
TabAtkins
Rossen_: Any other opinions?
-
TabAtkins
RESOLVED: When 'over-sunk', an initial-letter is aligned with the top metrics instead.
-
TabAtkins
Topic: end
-
-
fantasai
ScribeNick: fantasai
-
fantasai
Topic: Houdini
-
fantasai
s/Houdini/Houdini Layout/
-
» fantasai taking care of her buddy TabAtkins
-
Rossen_
Topic: String based inline layout API
-
» TabAtkins danke schoen
-
Rossen_
github:https://github.com/w3c/css-houdini-drafts/issues/990
-
-
fantasai
Rossen_: More and more desire to be able to perform typographic text layout from Canvas
-
Rossen_
-
fantasai
Rossen_: There were some proposals put forward to essentially expose API in the platform that will allow developers to do that
-
fantasai
Rossen_: e.g. ^
-
fantasai
Rossen_: When I looked at it, and when we discussed it, my initial reaction was, hey, we have Houdini, and Houdini Custom Layout API was intended to handle exactly this
-
fantasai
Rossen_: Overall idea, instead of performing layout that is based on a particular subsection of DOM that has text, inline markup, etc.
-
fantasai
Rossen_: Instead expose an API that simply, for custom layout or maybe different API, takes as input a string
-
fantasai
Rossen_: and does layout into the given space
-
fantasai
Rossen_: If Houdini is not able to handle this, we are failing this on some higher level
-
fantasai
Rossen_: So talked about it with iank_ and he expanded in the issue why this makes perfect sense and is good fit for the API
-
fantasai
Rossen_: Since then see that some additional comments by Travis and ?
-
fantasai
Rossen_: from Edge Team
-
AmeliaBR
q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
Rossen_: and I wanted to essentially turn this into a question and ask, does it seem like a reasonable API?
-
» fantasai q-
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
fremy
q+
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR, fremy on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
Rossen_: Is this a good API to add, given intended functionality?
-
fantasai
Rossen_: Will it serve the purpose motivating the other proposal?
-
» fantasai kindof concerned that myles isn't around?
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Ian had a question in the issue about, once you've laid out, how do you query back the position of content?
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: If you're going down that road, might look at APIs from SVG
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Can't promise they'll be all you want, but if can harmonize it's better
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: More specifically on the proposal, like the idea of being able to run layout separately from full CSS layout context
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: And re-using Houdini Layout APIs sounds good
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: I'm concerned about being based on simple text strings
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: As soon as you go beyond the simplest things, need annotations
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Need info on languages, need markup for bidi, going to need nest it with italic phrase inside regular text phrase, etc.
-
iank_
q+
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR, fremy, iank_ on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: So it might be better to keep thinking of styling a DOM fragment
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: but DOM fragment doesn't necessarily need to be attached to the document
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Because you will need some hierarchy of content
-
fantasai
Rossen_: what you're asking for already exists, just extending to handle string only
-
Rossen_
ack AmeliaBR
-
» Zakim sees fremy, iank_ on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai is confident that r12a thanks AmeliaBR for bringing up those concerns wrt bidi and lang tagging
-
Rossen_
ack fremy
-
» Zakim sees iank_ on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
fremy: One issue of doing with strings is, if you have ? such as text selection
-
fantasai
fremy: Doesn't work if you don't have something in the DOM to select
-
fantasai
fremy: Don't know the use case for the text
-
fantasai
fremy: But selection is something users expect, and problematic if we can't handle selection
-
fantasai
fremy: But at the same time, think about what Amelia said
-
fantasai
fremy: if you have something in the DOM to represent the string
-
fantasai
fremy: [something about spans]
-
fantasai
fremy: If in the DOM, you can copy and paste, etc.
-
fantasai
fremy: A lot of times you don't want to have everything possible in CSS
-
fantasai
fremy: Sounds useful in many cases
-
Rossen_
ack iank_
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
iank_: The linked formatted text explainer is much more well thought out
-
fantasai
iank_: and seems pretty good
-
fantasai
iank_: Amelia brought up point wrt doing on document fragments
-
fantasai
iank_: Issue there is, this API wanted to work inside of workers
-
fantasai
iank_: because have the Canvas API
-
fantasai
iank_: I don't think needs that much of hierarchy
-
fantasai
iank_: styling particular runs is roughly equivalent to structured hierarchy
-
sushanth
q+
-
» Zakim sees sushanth on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
iank_: One thing to think about there is bidi reordering, though
-
fantasai
iank_: To harmonize APIs
-
fantasai
iank_: call out some core ? or mixins that can be shared between the APIs
-
fantasai
iank_: Once you have a line of text, what info can you query?
-
Rossen_
q
-
» Zakim The speaker queue is:
-
» Zakim sushanth
-
» Zakim [end of queue]
-
fantasai
iank_: no reason they should be different
-
» fantasai isn't sure what makes sense, isn't entirely following the discussion, just copying what you say for the minutes ^_^
-
fantasai
??: Motivation was apps, like photoshop / excel
-
fantasai
sushanth: API was trying to give them ability to do multiline text
-
astearns
s/??/sushanth/
-
fantasai
sushanth: Houdini, they have control over canvas context they'd want text to be rendered?
-
fantasai
sushanth: Paint Worklet, Houdini controls context
-
fantasai
sushanth: but these cases rendering other things, just want a few lines of text
-
fantasai
sushanth: In terms of measuring API, we went towards existing Canvas Text Metrics API
-
fantasai
sushanth: exposes same set of things
-
fantasai
sushanth: Not the same as SVG, but has precedence on having some APIs
-
fantasai
sushanth: Chromium has advances as well
-
jfkthame
q+
-
» Zakim sees sushanth, jfkthame on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
sushanth: I think last question, selection / background / borders missing from this API
-
fantasai
sushanth: with metrics can implement this
-
fantasai
sushanth: in JS
-
Rossen_
q?
-
» Zakim sees sushanth, jfkthame on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
sushanth: Just wanted basic multiline text
-
» fantasai ack sushanth
-
» Zakim sees jfkthame on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai ack jfkthame
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
jfkthame: I wanted to comment that what I've seen of the text metrics API for canvas there, particularly advances from Chromium, that really does not address the needs of international text well
-
fantasai
jfkthame: Does not handle that one character can map to arbitrary number of glyphs and vice versa
-
fantasai
jfkthame: the mapping between glyphs and characters can be quite complex, and it doesn't handle that
-
Rossen__
q?
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Hadn't clicked through to explainer previously, and only saw the examples in the issue. Explainer looks like a much more complex model, allows annotations
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: if that's extended to handle i18n issues, that's a good start [wrt bidi and lang?]
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Might be useful to export a DOM fragment to this format
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: so if you have CSS-styled markup in Canvas Shadow DOM or in your SVG
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: and want to run through this API to get layout, would be a great feature
-
Rossen__
q
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai hasn't looked at this, what about justification / alignment?
-
sushanth
q+
-
» Zakim sees sushanth on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai q+ to ask us to get Myles's opinion before signing off on anything like this
-
» Zakim sees sushanth, fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
Rossen__: SVG has had this capability request for the longest time
-
fantasai
Rossen__: some such as inkscape that support, no renderers
-
fantasai
Rossen__: Want it in Canvas
-
fantasai
Rossen__: If for every one of these [sound breaks]
-
» smfr Rossen bluescreened
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: He was talking about how SVG has long wanted formatted multiline text, haven't been able to get implemented in browsers, so will be very jealous if Canvas gets it before we do
-
astearns
ack sushanth
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
sushanth: Point about advances in text metrics, it's incomplete
-
fantasai
sushanth: flag to get it to wokr
-
fantasai
sushanth: Does handle multiple glyphs per characters
-
fantasai
sushanth: We augmented with hierarchy to allow advances within ?
-
fantasai
sushanth: It addresses multiple chars into single glyph is that it gives you the same advance value
-
Guest60
present+
-
fantasai
sushanth: They'll all have the same advance value
-
jensimmons
present+
-
fantasai
sushanth: advance = position from the start
-
Rossen___
q?
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
jfkthame: That won't be any different than a zero-width character right?
-
AmeliaBR
This is similar to how the SVG API works: multiple characters will match to the same glyph box
-
fantasai
sushanth: true
-
fantasai
sushanth: Some other issues also?
-
fantasai
Rossen__: Main point I wanted to make before network drop...
-
» astearns cabana wifi not quite as good as home-office wifi
-
fantasai
Rossen__: If we're not looking for ways to harmonize Houdini APIs with rest of platform
-
fantasai
Rossen__: failing main use case of exposing ? to other things like Canvas and SVG
-
AmeliaBR
s/?/text layout/
-
fantasai
Rossen__: As we all know, text seems very benign and easy, when you thinking only about a few ascii glyphs
-
fantasai
Rossen__: breaks based on simple logic
-
fantasai
Rossen__: Things get increasingly complex
-
fantasai
Rossen__: to the point where you're mostly ending up re-implementing layout for CSS
-
fantasai
Rossen__: which now intended to be exposed as Houdini APIs
-
iank_
q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai, iank_ on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai it wasn't
-
Rossen___
ack fantasai
-
Zakim
fantasai, you wanted to ask us to get Myles's opinion before signing off on anything like this
-
» Zakim sees iank_ on the speaker queue
-
fremy
q+
-
» Zakim sees iank_, fremy on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
fantasai: Just wanted to say, I echo concerns about getting i18n right.
-
iank_
q-
-
» Zakim sees fremy on the speaker queue
-
iank_
q+
-
» Zakim sees fremy, iank_ on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
fantasai: Also want to say, I would be very uncomfortable resolving to add a new major text API without Myles signing off
-
fantasai
fremy: Was thinking about use case, the idea is to run this in workers
-
fantasai
fremy: because can't ? directly
-
fantasai
fremy: So that's why don't want to take something from the DOM and draw it
-
AmeliaBR
s/?/access the DOM/
-
fantasai
fremy: ...
-
fantasai
fremy: HTML content and canvas can automatically update
-
fantasai
fremy: what gets drawn on it
-
fantasai
fremy: that could get the other things to work
-
fantasai
fremy: for ppl using the API
-
fantasai
fremy: Draw on the canvas, put this in the DOM, and gets updated
-
fantasai
fremy: enables selection, a11y, etc. everything to wokr
-
astearns
s/.../describes an export from this API to a DOM fragment/
-
fantasai
fremy: That's an idea, another way of looking at it
-
fantasai
iank_: Based on the canvas text explainer here, definitely possible to harmonize SVG and layout API with htis
-
Rossen___
ack iank_
-
» Zakim sees fremy on the speaker queue
-
Rossen___
ack fremy
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
iank_: might me helpful to get on videochat and talk about details in detail at some point
-
fantasai
Rossen___: As stated in the beginning, wanted to get opinion on whether good approach in general
-
fantasai
Rossen___: For the proposed solution put together by ian on that issue, wanted to get feedback from sushanth and others
-
fantasai
Rossen___: whether approach worth pursuing
-
fantasai
Rossen___: Closing remarks are let's get together and work on this
-
sushanth
thank you Ian, happy to follow up. :D
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
florian
q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai, florian on the speaker queue
-
Rossen___
ack fantasai
-
» Zakim sees florian on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
fantasai: bidi, lang-tagging or markup for change in formatting, selection, a11y, character to glyph mapping ...
-
fantasai
fantasai: justification? would it be possible?
-
Rossen___
q
-
» Zakim The speaker queue is:
-
» Zakim florian
-
» Zakim [end of queue]
-
fantasai
sushanth: ? has some some text justification, has just left/right/center
-
AmeliaBR
s/?/canvas/
-
fantasai
fantasai: just wanted to make sure these points don't get lost
-
fantasai
florian: Want to echo a bit of the warning Myles gave us last time on this topic
-
fantasai
florian: needs to be foolproof, so that if user of API doesn't think about them, they still work
-
hober
present+
-
fantasai
florian: otherwise we make large parts of internet inaccessible or unusable to a lot of the world population
-
fantasai
florian: ...
-
fantasai
florian: getting the right balance is hard, but we have to do it
-
fantasai
iank_: This API is a substantial leap forward from current Canvas APIs
-
fantasai
[Note to scribe: insert link to Myle's comments here]
-
fantasai
Topic: ????
-
-
fantasai
s/????/Print Behavior and Test Requirements/
-
Rossen___
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
fantasai
-
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: gsnedders brought up really good point that historically we don't run JS for print
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: but how should that interact with layout API and paint API?
-
AmeliaBR
q+
-
» Zakim sees florian, AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: print style can change sizes of things
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: have to run custom paint and custom layout
-
astearns
ack florian
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: are we doing something with that?
-
florian
q-
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: if we're not, do we plan to?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: we should document this either way, to make sure it's clear how printing and houdini APIs work together
-
fantasai
Rossen___: When are we evaluating print?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: when you print a web page
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: switch over to print styles and fragment for printing
-
sushanth
+q
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR, sushanth on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: but aren't running JS
-
fantasai
iank_: These particular things, we should be running any layout API JS
-
Rossen___
ack AmeliaBR
-
» Zakim sees sushanth on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Definitely as part of a style recalc
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees sushanth, fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Dunno if works correctly, but that should be the expectation
-
» fantasai q-
-
» Zakim sees sushanth on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
sushanth: for printing, I work on canvas so I know how it works for Chavas
-
fantasai
sushanth: There's a "about to print" event, and you do stuff, and that gets replayed
-
plinss
present+
-
Rossen___
ack sushanth
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
sushanth: when you print, those recordings are played back
-
AmeliaBR
s/"about to print"/onBeforePrint/
-
emilio
q+
-
» Zakim sees emilio on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
Rossen___: So takeaway is yes, should be running all of the JS hooks and execute scripts that will do custom paint / layout etc. in all of these cases
-
fantasai
emilio: One question, for print approach, what happens when user changes stuff?
-
fantasai
emilio: does print run multiple times?
-
fantasai
emilio: in Gecko that's not the case
-
fantasai
emilio: You issue print command, right?
-
fantasai
emilio: there's a print preview that let's you adjust page size / margins / etc.
-
fantasai
emilio: we don't dispatch JS events every time that happens
-
fantasai
emilio: in Gecko, we do a complete separate document just for printing
-
fantasai
emilio: we fire beforeprint event before doing this
-
fantasai
emilio: when you change layout, we don't do it over again
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: It would be after regular JS event
-
» fantasai needs antecedent for it, AmeliaBR
-
Rossen___
q?
-
» Zakim sees emilio on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai missed it
-
Rossen___
ack emilio
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Houdini isn't part of event loop, it's triggered by style recalc directly
-
gsnedders
q+
-
» Zakim sees gsnedders on the speaker queue
-
» smfr we should probably specify when houdini js runs
-
fantasai
gsnedders: Want to point of last bit of my issue, which was about how we plan on testing the layout API
-
fantasai
gsnedders: whether we expect there to be different testing for paged media vs scrolling media
-
fantasai
iank_: There's currently work that is at least planned but maybe not in progress to support better printing in WPT?
-
fantasai
gsnedders: We have paged reftests, but only currently implemented in Gecko
-
fantasai
iank_: so on Chromium project to add support reftests of that form
-
Rossen___
ack gsnedders
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
iank_: Testing strategy should be no different from other printing tests
-
fantasai
gsnedders: ...
-
fantasai
gsnedders: JS tests for worklets specifically, do we want them to differ from paged media?
-
fantasai
iank_: Changing behavior between paged vs non-paged?
-
fantasai
iank_: Definitely will be a difference
-
fantasai
iank_: sizes change
-
fantasai
iank_: definitley change in layout maybe paint
-
fantasai
iank_: One that's missing is fragmentation support
-
fantasai
iank_: that's one thing that will definitely be triggered by paged media context
-
fantasai
emilio: We ported a lot of the Gecko paged reftests to be in WPT
-
fantasai
iank_: We're undergoing adding more and more capabilities to our new fragmentation engine
-
fantasai
iank_: adding a lot of those tests as ? tests
-
fantasai
iank_: first half of next year will be focusing solely on printing, effectively
-
fantasai
iank_: will add a lot more reftests
-
AmeliaBR
s/?/ref/
-
fantasai
iank_: will work on supporting print reftests in chromium at the same time
-
fantasai
gsnedders: I think that answers my questions
-
fantasai
Rossen___: smfr pointed out that we should probably specify when Houdini JS is specified in all of these cases for printing
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Are worklets allowed to do anything asyc?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: nope. Very intentionally
-
TabAtkins
ScribeNick: TabAtkins
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: Layout API hasnt' been published since 2018, and I'm guessing edits ahve happened since then
-
fantasai
fantasai: Just want to point out that Layout API haven't been published since 2018
-
TabAtkins
Rossen___: Yes Ian and I botha ttempted to publish this and both failed
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: If you have mechanics issues, can youg et a staff contact to help?
-
TabAtkins
Rossen___: Yes.
-
fantasai
fantasai: If you're getting stuck, ask the staff contacts for help
-
» fantasai sorry
-
fantasai
scribeNick: TabAtkins
-
» astearns apparently houdini js is failing to run on a publishing step
-
» TabAtkins I had already nick'd myself, you want to nick yourself back
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: let's record a resolution
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: Any houdini JS that needs to rerun for style / layout recalc needs to run
-
fantasai
RESOLVED: Any Houdini JS that needs to run for style / layout calc needs to run for print
-
fantasai
Topic: Break
-
-
fantasai
<br end="??:25">
-
GameMaker
present+
-
leaverou
-
fantasai
Topic: Color Conversion and Contrast Ratio
-
astearns
-
-
» tantek Zakim, who is there?
-
» Zakim I don't understand your question, tantek.
-
leaverou
-
» tantek Zakim, who is here?
-
» Zakim Present: Rossen, Atanassov, Microsoft, alisonmaher, cbiesinger, castastrophe, jfkthame, astearns, AmeliaBR, dholbert, oriol, TabAtkins, faceless, drousso, tantek, chris_, leaverou,
-
» Zakim ... Guest, jensimmons, hober, plinss, GameMaker
-
» Zakim sees on irc: myles, Rossen___, jensimmons, dlibby, smfr, fremy, chris_, tantek, drousso, oriol, dholbert, jfkthame, alisonmaher, faceless2, AmeliaBR, Zakim, plh, rego, innovati,
-
» Zakim ... hober, geheimnis`, liam, chris, GameMaker, RRSAgent, Karen, sylvaing, shans, Rossen, leaverou, projector, gsnedders, heycam|away, github-bot, ondrejko, argyle, florian,
-
» Zakim ... dustinm, JonathanNeal, BoCupp, ZoeBijl, dauwhe-irc-cloud, iank_, devsnek, CSSWG_LogBot, majidvp, kereliuk, lukebjerring, war2, yoichio, TabAtkins, cwilso, rbyers, astearns,
-
» Zakim ... NavidZ_
-
emilio
present+
-
» tantek RRSAgent, pointer?
-
-
» tantek Zakim, who is here?
-
» Zakim Present: Rossen, Atanassov, Microsoft, alisonmaher, cbiesinger, castastrophe, jfkthame, astearns, AmeliaBR, dholbert, oriol, TabAtkins, faceless, drousso, tantek, chris_, leaverou,
-
» Zakim ... Guest, jensimmons, hober, plinss, GameMaker, emilio
-
» Zakim sees on irc: tantek, myles, Rossen___, jensimmons, dlibby, smfr, fremy, chris_, drousso, oriol, dholbert, jfkthame, alisonmaher, faceless2, AmeliaBR, Zakim, plh, rego, innovati,
-
» Zakim ... hober, geheimnis`, liam, chris, GameMaker, RRSAgent, Karen, sylvaing, shans, Rossen, leaverou, projector, gsnedders, heycam|away, github-bot, ondrejko, argyle, florian,
-
» Zakim ... dustinm, JonathanNeal, BoCupp, ZoeBijl, dauwhe-irc-cloud, iank_, devsnek, CSSWG_LogBot, majidvp, kereliuk, lukebjerring, war2, yoichio, TabAtkins, cwilso, rbyers, astearns,
-
» Zakim ... NavidZ_
-
» tantek present- Microsoft Guest
-
fantasai
Rossen___: This issue motivated by TAG review about addition of lch and lab color spaces
-
fantasai
Rossen___: One concern being discussed being discussed with TAG was that we were getting more variety of color across platform
-
» jensimmons what's the issue?
-
fantasai
Rossen___: but capabilities of simple things like contrasting two colors is very difficult
-
-
» tantek ^ yes, what is the issue number?
-
fantasai
Rossen___: One of the ideas was, hey, if we have a strongly defined type of color that we can use across platform
-
» tantek thank you fantasai
-
fantasai
Rossen___: then we could look at exposing variety of functions either on or around object
-
fantasai
Rossen___: and achieve objectives like a11y and other things
-
fantasai
Rossen___: Seemed like TypedOM is good place to start
-
fantasai
Rossen___: Color is a type we need to define strongly
-
fantasai
Rossen___: Luckily Lea and Chris jumped in, had been thinking about it
-
fantasai
?: ??
-
fantasai
chris_: in color 4 there was an appendix written in JS by which I mean Pascal
-
fantasai
chris_: It's simple, does work, set of simple functions
-
fantasai
chris_: Also have utilities.js
-
fantasai
chris_: includes a contrast function
-
fantasai
chris_: Here's an sRGB_to_LCH
-
fantasai
chris_: it does it all in the right order
-
fantasai
chris_: It was useful for examples
-
fantasai
chris_: and useful for color 5
-
fantasai
chris_: but this is not a proposal for a color model
-
fantasai
chris_: not object oriented
-
fantasai
chris_: it's just something that wroks
-
fantasai
chris_: Here's color.js
-
fantasai
chris_: Until this morning was a private repo, now public
-
leaverou
-
fantasai
chris_: also not a proposal, but it's object oriented
-
fantasai
chris_: This is a JS API, you can use it in the browser or on the server
-
fantasai
chris_: These examples are all live, you can edit directly in the web page if you want
-
fantasai
chris_: variety of color models, includes all in color 4 (except device-cmyk()) as well as a few more
-
fantasai
leaverou demos
-
fantasai
chris_: Notice these are in different color spaces
-
fantasai
chris_: Internally it goes into CIEXYZ, and then ??, and then gets you a contrast
-
fantasai
chris_: You just say you want contrast between two colors, and it just works out for you
-
fantasai
chris_: You can change lightness or chroma or whatever
-
fantasai
chris_: similar to things we do in Color 5
-
fantasai
chris_: Convert between color spaces
-
fantasai
chris_: interpolate between colors
-
fantasai
chris_: either discreet steps, or gradients, or that sort of thing
-
fantasai
chris_ reviews documentation
-
fantasai
chris_: Color object. Can give a CSS string or use initializer with coordinates
-
fantasai
leaverou: color space ID plus coordinates plus optional alpha
-
fantasai
leaverou: or another color
-
fantasai
s/color/Color/
-
fantasai
chris_: This is similar to color-5, adjusting named coordinates
-
fantasai
chris_: We've actually supported more than Color 4 supports
-
fantasai
chris_: might be interesting to see if any would be useful as future additions
-
fantasai
chris_ notes there's bugs, especially in the documentation, since this is pre-release
-
fantasai
chris_: You can change color coordinates. Don't even have to change coordinates of the color space you're in
-
fantasai
chris_: That's fairly useful
-
fantasai
chris_: We also do gamut-mapping
-
fantasai
chris_: because easy to get colors that are out of gamut
-
fantasai
chris_: we've worked on that quite a bit, have an algo that works rather well
-
fantasai
chris_: Do a binary search to find closest color via chroma reduction
-
fantasai
chris_: and do speculative ???
-
fantasai
chris_: 1st one we reduce chroma until it's inside the range
-
fantasai
chris_: 2nd one, at each stage, we see if we clipped here, would we be close?
-
fantasai
chris_: and that works much better
-
astearns
s/???/clipping/
-
» astearns I think
-
fantasai
chris_: thinking to spec that in color-4 spec
-
fantasai
chris_: Interpolation
-
fantasai
chris_: range function allows that and getting intermediate stops
-
Rossen___
q
-
» Zakim The speaker queue is:
-
» Zakim fantasai
-
» Zakim [end of queue]
-
» fantasai q-
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
Rossen___
q+
-
» Zakim sees Rossen___ on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
leaverou: range function actually returns a function
-
fantasai
leaverou: we can specify which space to do interpolation in
-
fantasai
leaverou: you can see here examples of what each interpolation space produces
-
fantasai
leaverou: we also implemented longer/shorter/increasing/decreasing args for the hue we were discussing
-
fantasai
leaverou: although didn't implement dbaron's ? yet
-
fantasai
chris_: Lets us implement and check and see if it works. Very helpful in writing spec
-
fantasai
chris_: Also discussing keeping ? constant
-
fantasai
leaverou: but we do keep Nan for chroma
-
fantasai
s/keeping ?/using Nan for keeping coord/
-
fantasai
chris_: It's on GH and there's a link, and also a bunch of tests
-
fantasai
chris_: any questions at this stage?
-
astearns
ack Rossen___
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
Rossen___: First of all, this is awesome, thanks for sharing
-
fantasai
Rossen___: Looking forward to playing with the project
-
fantasai
Rossen___: that's exactly what I was hoping to see
-
fantasai
Rossen___: and you made this fantastic
-
fantasai
Rossen___: Wrt functions like color-mix() etc.
-
fremy
big +1 this is super great!
-
fantasai
Rossen___: let's say we start going towards adopting such a type in TypedOM, where does that leave us?
-
AmeliaBR
q+
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
chris_: You'll have 2 ways to do it: declarative in color-5, and imperative way like this
-
fantasai
chris_: imperative can have more functionality
-
fantasai
chris_: I don't think it's a problem that we have both declarative and imperative
-
fantasai
leaverou: ?
-
fantasai
leaverou: haven't done adjusters yet
-
fantasai
leaverou: accepts a color space as well, but not adjusters
-
fantasai
chris_: As general goal, would like to implement all of color-5 so we can test, and do example, see how that works
-
fantasai
chris_: Another thing ppl might have noticed, there's a few more color spaces here not in color 4
-
fantasai
chris_: support high dynamic range coors
-
fantasai
chris_: there's a secret spec called css-color-hdr
-
fantasai
chris_: there was an issue around high dynamic range
-
fantasai
chris_: I said we won't do it, because too unstable
-
fantasai
chris_: but I did spec an extension to color-4
-
fantasai
chris_: and wanted to see that it works and coded it up
-
fantasai
chris_: I presented to ??? and got good feedback, currently incorporating that
-
fantasai
chris_: will present to the WG later
-
astearns
s/???/ICC/
-
fantasai
chris_: in the meantime, i'm incubating it in code to see whether it's feasible
-
astearns
ack AmeliaBR
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
florian
-
leaverou
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Great library, very useful. Some similar things, but this is a nice APi with good features
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Wrt what we should adopt into the actual Web platform
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: I do like the idea of having general color utilities object
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: That you can call without having to getComputeStyle
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: coordnate with TypedOM also good
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: so you can construct CSS color type or get it from a style rule or a computed style
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: that would be great design
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Probably don't want quite as many features as we have in this library
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Might want to integrate a bit more e.g. generated gradients
-
» smfr easing functions
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: and easing function would be its own object, to use more generally than just color
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Interpolator for data vis
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: would be a great feature, use native interpolation that CSS already knows how to do
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: with additional smarts like interpolating in different color spaces
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: also useful to have
-
fantasai
astearns: Anything else besides showing new cool code?
-
fantasai
Rossen___: How do you see this moving forward?
-
fantasai
chris_: Requirements, one of them for web platform API
-
fantasai
chris_: what features do we want, what would be nice, what would be layered on top
-
fantasai
chris_: Rossen asked about contrast, that's important
-
fantasai
chris_: Converting between color spaces without having to understand how it does
-
fantasai
chris_: not knowing about white points, not having to figure that out, that's important
-
fantasai
leaverou: There should also be way to access color before / after gamut mapping because ???
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Especially important for finding contrast ratio
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: if colors are theoretically good contrast, but not on user's screen, need to reflect that
-
fantasai
florian: So is the plan to subset your project into TypedOM? and then build your project on top of that result?
-
fantasai
chris_: would be reasonable
-
fantasai
astearns: If you can't build on top of the subset, then we chose the wrong subset
-
fantasai
Rossen___: That was part of my hope
-
fantasai
Rossen___: exactly why I was provoking this type of discussion and exposure in typed OM space
-
fantasai
Rossen___: Anything else left on color that you didn't cover?
-
AmeliaBR
s/ ???/ that affects the results/
-
fantasai
leaverou: ICC profiles
-
fantasai
leaverou: in theory, TypedOM should cover that as well
-
fantasai
leaverou: but wouldn't that make it asynchronous?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: We already have a few things that need external resources, don't have a great way to handle that
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: but nothing else needs to be infected, just wait for them via Promise
-
fantasai
chris_: Mentioned that we have a lot of stuff. Because we wanted to test things against each other
-
fantasai
chris_: e.g. deltaE, implemented 5 different variants
-
fantasai
chris_: wanted to compare visual result, perf
-
fantasai
faceless2: ...
-
fantasai
florian: Feels like what we need is the various objects and methods to let you get from one to the other, and create mixes
-
bkardell_
present+
-
fantasai
florian: don't necessarily need all the operations to get from one color to another color
-
fantasai
florian: maybe need ? and ?, but methods to get between them, but TypedOM doesn't need
-
fantasai
chris_: Do need an intermediate way to go between colors
-
fantasai
chris_: you use colors together, not in isolation
-
Rossen___
q?
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Base case would be converting single color into other color spaces
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: so you can convert two colors into the same color space in order to compare or calculate
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: Devs can implement the formulas that use whatever paramterization of colors that they need
-
fantasai
chris_: yep
-
fantasai
Rossen___: I agree
-
fantasai
Rossen___: that was initial motivation here, exposing the type that will allow you to at least hoist the color space and its values
-
fantasai
Rossen___: having this type, you can start adding libraries around it that do a bunch of math
-
fantasai
Rossen___: as we go forward, can identify which math goes into native platform and which stays as library
-
fantasai
Rossen___: but not having basic type is a blocker
-
fantasai
Rossen___: My hope and ask for you, is to start defining what this type should look like
-
fantasai
Rossen___: what is minimum set of parameters and stuff
-
fantasai
Rossen___: I see Tab and fremy still editing TypedOM, so work with them to move it forward
-
» fantasai q+
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
astearns
ack fantasai
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
fantasai: I want to note that Typed OM has also not been published since 2018.
-
TabAtkins
Topic: Concern about attributeStyleMap updating the style attribute
-
-
TabAtkins
-
» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/css-houdini-drafts #997 ([css-typed-om] Prevent CSS Typed OM updates via `attributeStyleMap` from updating DOM `style` attributes).
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: I'm not sure if this is an actual concern to worry about
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: wanted impl advice
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: when doing high-frequency updates, like during TypedOM
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: use single transform object, setting over and over again
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: but are seeing the style attr get updated in real time as well
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: so reserialization happening constantly as well
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: we saw as a perf concern
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: So is this actually causing trouble?
-
» AmeliaBR isn't this an observer effect of having Dev Tools open, maybe?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: person seems to believe causing perf issues, I'm not sure myself
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: but if we are eagerly reserializing to style attr, not great. Negates a major advantage of TypedOM
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: Apparently we don't ???
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: but if you look in inspector, do see it being constantly updated
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: But either way..
-
jensimmons
present-
-
fantasai
emilio: Mutation observer thing, it should fire mutation observer callbacks exceptin some cases
-
fantasai
emilio: afaict, internally we don't serialize until asked for
-
fantasai
emilio: if that's devtools, then we reserialize all the time
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: if that's true across browsers, then I can close as no change, browsers are smart enough to handle appropriately don't worry about it
-
fantasai
fremy: meaning?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: browsers aren't eagerly serializing
-
» fantasai q+ to suggest a note in the spec
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
iank_: file a bug against Chrome? we should investigate this
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: apparently Chrome doesn't fire mutation events
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: that's a bug in chrome
-
fantasai
fremy: Because we still want to update the style attr, every single time
-
fantasai
fremy: can we put something in the spec that says when?
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: it's on demand
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: when someone asks for it, or is observing the style attr
-
fantasai
fremy: so flag it?
-
fantasai
fremy: ok
-
Rossen___
q?
-
» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: sounds like the resolution should be, browsers should be smart enough to lazily serialize style attr when necessary
-
» fantasai ack fantasai
-
Zakim
fantasai, you wanted to suggest a note in the spec
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: I can put a note in the spec
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: One thing to consider, should this be a general thing for DOM attributes reflected?
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: working with CSSOM or other things to be consistent?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: yeah.....
-
smfr
q+
-
» Zakim sees smfr on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: existing string OM, not doing any restringifying, but sure there are some reflected attrs
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: in HTML... I'll check if HTML has wording on that
-
fantasai
ACTION: TabAtkins investigate restringification of reflected attrs across OMs
-
» RRSAgent records action 1
-
fantasai
fremy: Not always the user that gets the style attr
-
fantasai
fremy: e.g. ??
-
fantasai
fremy: Should never happen. Shouldn't change the DOM when recomputing CSS
-
TabAtkins
s/??/if you have a selector that depends on the style attribute's contents/
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: DOM has it internally tracked, doesn't need to update everything to keep consistent except on demand
-
fantasai
emilio: style attr keep not a string, but a CSS declaration and an attached string
-
fantasai
emilio: when request string, we serialize it
-
fantasai
emilio: Someon requests DOM attr, will get the correct value
-
TabAtkins
ack smfr
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
» fantasai can't hear
-
» fantasai you're super queit
-
» fantasai you're super quiet
-
fantasai
smfr: Normally we don't specify internal details
-
fantasai
smfr: Would just be a QoI issue about when serialization happens
-
fantasai
smfr: Spec shouldn't say anything, should just specify web-exposed behavior
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: agree
-
» fantasai thinks a note is useful to implementers, to pay attention to the issue
-
» fantasai though agree shouldn't be specced
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: I will close no change, review HTML to see if they have any particular wording
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: only other thing is to make sure wording is clear wrt event hooks
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: should trigger mutation observers even if not serialized until asked for
-
fantasai
ACTION TabAtkins write a test for mutation observer for style attr changes via TYpedOM
-
fantasai
ACTION: TabAtkins write a test for mutation observer for style attr changes via TYpedOM
-
» RRSAgent records action 2
-
TabAtkins
Topic: Simplifying away calc() wrappers around single numeric values when reifying
-
-
TabAtkins
-
» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/css-houdini-drafts #968 ([css-typed-om] Should TypedOM "simplify away" a calc() wrapper around a single numeric value when reifying, like serialization does?).
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: If serializing ? or used value of calc(), gets simplified down
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: at that point, you remove the calc() wrapper if simplifies down to a single component
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: This behavior doesn't happen in TypedOM
-
AmeliaBR
s/?/computed/
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: it retains the calc() wrapper
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: not sure if we should try to adopt or not
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: if particular impl concern, I don't have a strong opinion...
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: from authoring side, if you wanted to go in and manipulate the value in the wrapper and still have clamping effects of calc()
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: e.g. calc(-5px) in property that's positive values only
-
fantasai
AmeliaBR: ...?
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: if you set a calc() it'll get that behavior, if you set a simple numeric value it won't
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: if you want to do math, can do it without having already wrapped in calc regardless
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: in particular, emilio brought this up in a CSS isue
-
fantasai
s/isue/issue/
-
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
AmeliaBR
s/...?/Where the clamping value would be different with a plain -5px. Not sure how clamping would be different in TypedOM./
-
fantasai
emilio: I think getComputedValue is px value because can simplify away, so I think everyone should do the same
-
fantasai
emilio: would be annoying in implemntation to maintain that information
-
fantasai
emilio: about whethe was wrapped in calc or not
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: ok, propose to resolve that TypedOM reifies value as simplified form
-
fantasai
RESOLVED: TypedOM reifies values as simplified form (mirroring getComputedStyle etc.)
-
TabAtkins
<br dur=10min>
-
TabAtkins
Topic: end
-
-
» oriol fantasai: yes, they lgtm! Did you not receive the email I sent 1h 15min ago?
-
» fantasai lol, no, I was minuting and/or fixing the test wrt your comments ^_^
-
» fantasai will close the issue
-
» fantasai should we propose to republishe css-grid-1 then?
-
» astearns Implementer border-radius query - has anyone implemented the 1 + (r-1)^3 radius adjustment yet? And if not, are there bugs for it?
w3c/csswg-drafts #1900
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
» oriol yes, republishing sounds good
-
faceless2
@astearns we've implemented it, I haven't noticed any issues but wouldn't be likely to unless there's a WPT test for it.
-
TabAtkins
Topic: using ObservableArray for the list-ish values in TypedOM
-
TabAtkins
-
» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/css-houdini-drafts #948 ([css-typed-om] Switch CSSUnparsedValue and CSSTransformValue to having an arrayish member?).
-
» astearns gleefully happy that Tab's first chairing includes finding someone to minute
-
fremy
ScribeNick: fremy
-
fremy
TabAtkins: I tried to get better support for array-like classes in WebIDL
-
fremy
TabAtkins: because we have three things that expose lists, and could benefit from this
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but given I made no progress, I ended up using the legacy "getter/indexer" of WebIDL
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but sadly that means that it's not an array
-
fremy
TabAtkins: and you cannot use forEach etc on them
-
fremy
TabAtkins: you have to convert them to an array first
-
TabAtkins
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but domenic fixed this for me
-
fremy
TabAtkins: and we have the observable array type
-
fremy
TabAtkins: for the javascript user, it looks like an array
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but it still triggers callbacks that allow us to type check things
-
fremy
TabAtkins: so I'd like to switch to that
-
fremy
TabAtkins: unfortunately that would result in a breaking change
-
fremy
TabAtkins: indeed, the value itself cannot be an array
-
fremy
TabAtkins: because it has to subclass the CSSValue type
-
fremy
TabAtkins: so we need to store the list in a "values" member
-
AmeliaBR
q+
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR on the speaker queue
-
fremy
TabAtkins: for the math-value types, it's easier because it's already a FrozenArray
-
fremy
TabAtkins: so I can just switch it
-
fremy
TabAtkins: any objection to do this change?
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: so, if I understand, you now need to do "x.values[0]" instead of "x[0]"?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: if I don't accomodate that by making a special behavor, yes
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: could we then make a putforward?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: yes, we definitely can
-
fremy
q+
-
» Zakim sees AmeliaBR, fremy on the speaker queue
-
fremy
TabAtkins: and we could do that by just updating the code to do that and lookup in the array
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: browser support?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: yes, typedom is shipped in chrome
-
fremy
TabAtkins: because paint api
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: I would not like to break demos
-
fremy
TabAtkins: yes, let's make the accomodation, it's not worth breaking the demos
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: (restates)
-
fremy
TabAtkins: (yes)
-
AmeliaBR
ack AmeliaBR
-
» Zakim sees fremy on the speaker queue
-
Rossen___
ack AmeliaBR
-
» Zakim sees fremy on the speaker queue
-
Rossen___
ack fremy
-
» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
-
fantasai
fremy: I'm entirely in favor
-
fantasai
fremy: Always thought it was really weird that ? and ?? you couldn't index it
-
fantasai
fremy: so much cleaner for the PAI
-
fantasai
fremy: not only improvement that you get an array
-
fantasai
fremy: definitely in favor
-
fantasai
fremy: and ??? sounds like a no-brainer
-
fremy
TabAtkins: ok
-
bkardell_
s/PAI/API ?
-
fremy
s/??/forwarding
-
fremy
TabAtkins: any concern from implementers?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: looks like no?
-
astearns
s/???/forwarding
-
fremy
TabAtkins: any objection to adopt the change in the issue, with forwarding kept in?
-
fremy
RESOLVED: put the list in a "value" property, and add a forwarding for compat
-
TabAtkins
Topic: ban data: url worklets
-
-
TabAtkins
-
-
fremy
TabAtkins: next topic comes from Ana Tudor
-
AmeliaBR
s/Ana Tudor/Anne VK/
-
fremy
s/Ana Tudor/AnneVK/
-
TabAtkins
vK
-
fremy
TabAtkins: you initialize a worklet by passing a url
-
fremy
TabAtkins: you can do that using a data url to avoid using the network
-
fremy
TabAtkins: annevk says that this can be an issue
-
fremy
TabAtkins: for security reasons
-
fremy
TabAtkins: blob urls would still work
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but data urls apparently have some issue
-
fremy
TabAtkins: any comment?
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: can we add a note showing how to use a blob url?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: why not?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: any suggestion?
-
fremy
RESOLVED: ban data url from spanning a worker
-
fremy
s/spanning/spawning/
-
TabAtkins
Topic: make P&V API descriptors optional
-
-
TabAtkins
-
» github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to
w3c/css-houdini-drafts #994 ([css-properties-values-api] Make all the descriptors optional).
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: with the at-property rule shipping, people started taking a look
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: there were complaints that all the fields have to be explicit
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: and this is not very css-y
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: in general, css does handle defaults better
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: and by making all these things be required, you remove some behaviors
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: reasons why people use this
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: - transition values
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: - prevent inheritance
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: - provide default value
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: you don't always want all three
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fremy
AmeliaBR: and now you have to set all of them, which is not always useful
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fremy
AmeliaBR: worse, you cannot say "this is a color or it is invalid"
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» fantasai oriol, ok I think I've address all your review comments on the test...
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» fantasai * addressed
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fremy
TabAtkins: that default value thing is a different issue
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fremy
TabAtkins: I agree we should fix this
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fremy
TabAtkins: the other two cases
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fremy
TabAtkins: the inheritance one is that in JS, true has a default value is not logical
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fremy
TabAtkins: and we don't want to default to inheritance, because this is more costly
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fremy
TabAtkins: but having the default be the revert of the normal choice is confusing
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fremy
TabAtkins: so, we think forcing people to think about this is good
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fremy
TabAtkins: I think that issue is well settled, we really want to keep this in
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fremy
TabAtkins: for the syntax, we could use the unrestricted syntax "*" as a default
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fremy
TabAtkins: but I don't think that this is what you want
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fremy
TabAtkins: because it cannot do anything useful for you with this syntax
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fremy
TabAtkins: if we make this required, authors get an error, and they learn about this
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» oriol fantasai, let me take a look, I'm still getting some failures in my locally fixed chromium
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fremy
TabAtkins: and they realize they could have a better behavior
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AmeliaBR
q?
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» Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
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fremy
TabAtkins: and "*" is not that common so I don't think it will be common enough to warrant the default
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fremy
TabAtkins: and there are other places in css where we force people to specify a value even if we have an obvious default
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fremy
TabAtkins: like for example fonts
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fremy
TabAtkins: we force you to say "serif" as fallback
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fremy
TabAtkins: even though it could be implied
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but we thought forcing people to think about the fallback is useful
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fremy
AmeliaBR: you said that throwing an error makes more sense
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fremy
AmeliaBR: but in the non-declarative syntax, this works differently
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fremy
emilio: there are browsers where you can see CSS errors
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fremy
emilio: ;-)
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fremy
TabAtkins: I think this information is surfacable
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fremy
TabAtkins: if some browsers have a less-than-useful way of surfacing this, we can fix
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but I still think "hey this doesn't work" is better than making it work less well
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fremy
TabAtkins: AmeliaBR do you feel about this strongly?
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: not a huge deal I guess, won't object
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: however, I think that the solution to the other issue is very important
-
fremy
TabAtkins: yes, that's another issue, and there is another thread about that, and I think we are in agreement with what you wanted?
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fremy
AmeliaBR: can you send a pointer?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: yes, issue ???
-
astearns
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
fremy
TabAtkins: so, it sounds like we should be able to resolve to close this issue no change for now
-
fremy
TabAtkins: any final objection?
-
fremy
RESOLVED: keep all fields in @property required
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TabAtkins
Topic: end
-
-
» fantasai q+
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» Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue
-
fremy
Topic: drafts
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fremy
Rossen___: we have lots of specs that are outdated and needs republishing
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fremy
Rossen___: and most are just working drafts
-
fremy
Rossen___: so republishing should be easy
-
fremy
Rossen___: for example worklets
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» fantasai would really like to get resolution for grid before Oriol leaves, so please save a few minutes at the end, thanks!
-
fremy
Rossen___: no republication since 2016
-
fremy
Rossen___: we only have one editor, iank_
-
fremy
Rossen___: and that is probably not a focus of his to update specs
-
fremy
Rossen___: so, can we get another editor?
-
fremy
Rossen___: also, what other things do we need to do in worklets?
-
fremy
Rossen___: because if not, can we get this to CR?
-
fremy
Rossen___: (or, we merge it with html)
-
fremy
florian: I think we should update the working draft
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» oriol fantasai, there was a typo in the test, everything passes after fixing that
-
fremy
florian: irrespective of whether we want to merge
-
fremy
florian: it only takes a few minutes to do
-
fremy
Rossen___: there are a few issues in this spec
-
fremy
Rossen___: but not much
-
fremy
Rossen___: TabAtkins, anybody else could help contribute to this spec?
-
fremy
TabAtkins: I'm not sure
-
fremy
TabAtkins: ??? worked in web audio
-
fremy
TabAtkins: which use some aspects of worklets
-
fremy
TabAtkins: but not sure if there's desire to become editor
-
fremy
chris_: there are also folks at mozilla implementing it
-
fremy
Rossen___: who?
-
chris_
paul adenot, mozilla
-
fremy
chris_: I'll type it in when I find
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: handing it over to the spec that explains the window context makes sense
-
chris_
s/???/Raymond Toy
-
fremy
AmeliaBR: but I think updating the publication before sounds useful
-
fremy
RESOLVED: Update the worklet spec working draft
-
fremy
Rossen___: we also need to republish layout paint typedom
-
fremy
Rossen___: properties and values are ok though
-
fremy
fantasai: can we talk about grid in the last few minutes?
-
fremy
Rossen___: yes, we dont need resolutions for the others
-
fremy
Topic: grid
-
fantasai
-
fremy
Rossen___: we need to publish a new CR
-
fremy
fantasai: yes, we have DoC, tests for changes, etc...
-
fantasai
-
fremy
fantasai: and there is a lot of them, so we should really update
-
» astearns more issues than dalmations!
-
fremy
fantasai: there are a few issues left over for the next revision
-
fremy
fantasai: oriol said it would be ok to republish
-
fremy
fantasai: and I support
-
fremy
oriol: (confirms)
-
» fantasai trusts oriol's judgement more than her own in this regard
-
fremy
Rossen___: any objection to republish CR of Grid L1 with these changes?
-
» fantasai :)
-
fremy
RESOLVED: update the CSS Grid L1 CR
-
fremy
Topic: end of the meeting ^_^
-
» bkardell_ +1 please - to the calendar invites
-
florian
+1
-
Rossen___
Zakim, end meeting
-
Zakim
As of this point the attendees have been Rossen, Atanassov, Microsoft, alisonmaher, cbiesinger, castastrophe, jfkthame, astearns, AmeliaBR, dholbert, oriol, TabAtkins, faceless,
-
Zakim
... drousso, tantek, chris_, leaverou, Guest, jensimmons, hober, plinss, GameMaker, emilio, bkardell_
-
Zakim
RRSAgent, please draft minutes
-
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate
w3.org/2020/07/31-css-minutes.html Zakim
-
Zakim
I am happy to have been of service, Rossen___; please remember to excuse RRSAgent. Goodbye
-
TabAtkins
jensimmons: Do you still have a link to the cascade layers slides you presented back in Jan?
-
TabAtkins
I couldn't find them in the minutes.
-
jensimmons
I do. Just a sec.
-
jensimmons
-
Domenic
Merging worklets with HTML would probably be good for reducing maintenance burden. Currently whenever we change how globals work (which is a surprisingly-active area) we have to update three specs: HTML, service workers, and worklets. Reducing that to 2 would be a big simplification.
-
fantasai
jensimmons: Can you send a copy to www-archive⊙wo?
-
fantasai
gregwhitworth: Need a PDF attachment of your slides to www-archive, not just a link. The whole point is to get it archived. :)
-
JonathanNeal
Is there something I can do as a non-member to make IPR commitments so that my PRs do not get failure checks? Ref:
w3c/csswg-drafts #5377
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
fantasai
JonathanNeal: I'm sure there is, but I'm not sure what.
-
fantasai
JonathanNeal: Chris Lilly or xfq would know
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: If you approve
w3c/csswg-drafts #5377 I will merge it
-
» github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
-
» fantasai not an editor of css-syntax
-
» fantasai :)
-
fantasai
JonathanNeal: merged
-
JonathanNeal
fantasai-stic! 🎉
-
» fantasai RRSAgent, pointer
-
-
» fantasai rrsagent, make minutes v2
-
RRSAgent
I have made the request to generate
w3.org/2020/07/31-css-minutes.html fantasai
-
fantasai
TabAtkins: Filed the CR update request!
w3c/transitions #258
-
TabAtkins
fantasai: nice!
-
fantasai
Also pushed a pile of track-sizing tests to WPT because we had like no tests on min-content sizing so adding one for the minor fix wasn't really...
-
astearns
yay tests!
-
fantasai
That brought up the interesting case of 'auto min-content'
-
fantasai
when min-width < min-content, the auto column gets smaller than the min-content column...
-
fantasai
kinda weird
-
fantasai
not sure that's expected
-
fantasai
-
fantasai
m%3A%20solid%20teal%22%3E%3C%2Fspan%3E
-
fantasai
...
-
fantasai
anyway