09:52:59 <AutomatedTester> foolip: jgraham hey, do we need a meeting today?
09:54:32 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-02-BiDi seems quite bare
10:00:54 <foolip> AutomatedTester: there were some issues about https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/73 that Maksim wanted to discuss, which is what the TODO is for, but arguably it wouldn't matter to most people who join the call. jgraham WDYT?
10:01:15 <AutomatedTester> let's do it then
10:01:28 <AutomatedTester> I am just checking if people want to add things
10:01:37 <AutomatedTester> we can finish early
10:01:45 <AutomatedTester> I have an update on the WG status
10:08:33 <jgraham> I'm going to add some agenda items
10:32:35 <sadym>  /part #webdriver
10:40:54 <foolip> sadym_: welcome, did you just join? I didn't see you here before at least :)
11:20:49 <sadym> @foolip finally I joined.
16:47:17 <RRSAgent> logging to https://www.w3.org/2021/02/10-webdriver-irc
16:47:28 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: quiet
16:47:28 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'quiet', AutomatedTester.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
16:47:55 <AutomatedTester> RRSAgent: silence
16:47:57 * RRSAgent is not logging
16:57:00 <jgraham> RRSAgent: start
16:57:00 * RRSAgent is logging
16:57:07 <jgraham> RRSAgent: draft minutes v2
16:57:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:57:14 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make logs public
16:57:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request, jgraham
16:57:30 <jgraham> Meeting: WebDriver
16:57:37 <jgraham> Chair: AutomatedTester
16:57:46 <jgraham> Agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-02-BiDi
16:58:29 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
16:58:41 <jgraham> RRSAgent: draft minutes v2
16:58:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
16:59:01 * AutomatedTester thanks jgraham 
16:59:14 <jgraham> present+
17:00:00 <AutomatedTester> present+
17:00:10 <sadym> present+
17:00:59 <jgraham> q?
17:00:59 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:01:47 <drousso> present+
17:01:50 <brwalder> present+
17:01:55 <Honza> present+
17:01:57 <jdescottes> present+
17:02:02 <shengfa> present+
17:02:20 <AutomatedTester> https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebDriver/2021-02-BiDi
17:02:42 <whimboo> present+
17:02:47 <cb> present+
17:03:58 <jgraham> ScribeNick: jgraham
17:04:05 <foolip> present+
17:04:14 <jgraham> Topic: Charter
17:05:37 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: WG is rechartered for 3 months as an intermin charter. Longer recharter is requested from plh/MikeSmith. Deliverables as discussed in the previous meeting. New charter should be for 2 years, which is the timeframe for delivering BiDi and updates to original WebDriver
17:06:06 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: No action required at this time. Should be up on the charter website. Thanks to MikeSmith for doing the heavy lifting here.
17:06:09 <foolip> q+
17:06:10 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:06:33 <jgraham> foolip: Will the rechartering change the charter?
17:06:36 <simonstewart> present+
17:07:20 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: Charter should be the same. Needs to go through the W3C Process for rechartering. 3 months is an extension to allow that to happen, since the charter had expired.
17:07:32 <jgraham> AutomatedTester: So far no concerns.
17:07:53 <jgraham> foolip: Sounds like it shouldn't require much additional review
17:08:01 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:08:01 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:08:06 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:08:06 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:08:06 <jgraham> ack foolip
17:08:07 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:08:18 <jgraham> ScribeNick: AutomatedTester
17:09:15 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Start adding Logging module
17:09:20 <AutomatedTester> github https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/73
17:09:20 * github-bot Because I don't want to spam github issues unnecessarily, I won't comment in that github issue unless you write "Github: <issue-url> | none" (or "Github issue: ..."/"Github topic: ...").
17:09:32 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/73
17:09:32 * github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/73 (Start adding log module).
17:10:14 <jimevans> present+
17:10:14 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the update from my side is I havent been able to do much
17:10:50 <AutomatedTester> sadym: the main question, should we focus on scalability or the end user usability
17:11:25 <jgraham> q+
17:11:25 * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
17:11:29 <foolip> q+
17:11:29 * Zakim sees jgraham, foolip on the speaker queue
17:11:31 <AutomatedTester> ... as we focus on scalable we can create a situation that becomes unusable from a UX point of view
17:11:34 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:11:34 * Zakim sees jgraham, foolip on the speaker queue
17:11:38 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:11:38 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:12:57 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: My understandin here is on the question is [describes how log events might work]. In the spec we js errors or log messages. These can have different types of arguments that come up.
17:13:29 <AutomatedTester> ... There are a few ways we could structure the data and go for the Union of all the fields that could come through
17:13:53 <AutomatedTester> .. that feels like a bad idea and you're encoding which fields could be null
17:14:20 <AutomatedTester> ... one way we can solve this it to have a base type that has the basic fields and then have items that build off that
17:15:03 <AutomatedTester> ... and the suggestion that was made lets have a flat structure and then have an "inheritence" type model
17:15:28 <AutomatedTester> ... I don't have a strong oppinion
17:15:37 <simonstewart> q+
17:15:37 * Zakim sees foolip, simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:15:57 <foolip> q-
17:15:57 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:16:11 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:16:11 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:16:33 <AutomatedTester> ... and it feels like what we decide here will set the precedent for the rest of the spec
17:16:38 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:16:38 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:16:44 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:16:44 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:17:20 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: The inheritence model makes sense because it make gives you how that would go
17:17:24 <foolip> q+
17:17:24 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:17:30 <AutomatedTester> ...but lets rather think of them as mixins
17:17:40 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: that makes sense
17:17:42 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:17:42 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:17:48 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:17:48 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:18:25 <AutomatedTester> foolip: At the protocol level we can have this in CDDL
17:18:43 <AutomatedTester> ... and it seems we all agree
17:18:48 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:18:48 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:19:38 <AutomatedTester> topic: Adding `Description` to the serialised objects
17:19:38 * github-bot Successfully commented on https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/73
17:19:45 * jgraham edits the agenda
17:21:33 <AutomatedTester> sadym: I was working on the prototype and it seemed quite hard to figure out what was being returned based
17:21:38 <jgraham> q+
17:21:38 * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
17:22:07 <AutomatedTester> ... and I am wondering if we can add something that would help real people to understand what is going on to real people
17:22:55 <AutomatedTester> ... and e.g. For an array we have the description with the name which is more human friendly
17:23:00 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:23:00 * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
17:23:36 <AutomatedTester> ... if the object is a Window it has a `description` with Window in it
17:23:42 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:23:42 * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
17:23:47 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:23:47 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:24:28 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the serialisation we have is different to CDP so we have recursive serialisation
17:24:58 <AutomatedTester> ... and we have specific properties that describe the object instead of having a description
17:25:49 <AutomatedTester> ... the main worry for me it will be vendor/implementor specific which loses its value
17:25:57 <simonstewart> q+
17:25:57 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:26:03 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:26:03 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:26:04 <sadym> q+
17:26:04 * Zakim sees simonstewart, sadym on the speaker queue
17:26:21 <jgraham> s/loses its value/makes it a liability for interop/
17:26:22 <AutomatedTester> ack sadym
17:26:22 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:27:41 <AutomatedTester> sadym: what about node elements?
17:27:47 <foolip> q?
17:27:47 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:28:02 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: for those we are already sending back details that tells you what element it is
17:28:07 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:28:07 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:29:14 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: one thing to be aware of is that we can't always be done on localhost so we need to do minimise the wire calls is going to be healthy for people's tests
17:29:15 <foolip> q+
17:29:15 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:29:24 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:29:24 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:29:39 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I was looking at the CDDL for arrays specifically
17:29:45 <jgraham> q+
17:29:45 * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
17:30:21 <AutomatedTester> ... and we can't work out the length of the array without fully knowing the objects in the array
17:30:30 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:30:30 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:30:36 <simonstewart> q+
17:30:36 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:30:54 <sadym> q+
17:30:54 * Zakim sees simonstewart, sadym on the speaker queue
17:31:11 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: We should allow people to get the array length without having to serialise the children and that should be cheap to implment
17:31:13 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:31:13 * Zakim sees simonstewart, sadym on the speaker queue
17:31:18 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:31:18 * Zakim sees sadym on the speaker queue
17:31:51 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: is there a way from WebDriver HTTP and augment?
17:32:04 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: I believe we already do a superset and if we dont we should
17:32:06 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:32:06 * Zakim sees sadym on the speaker queue
17:32:11 <AutomatedTester> ack sadym
17:32:11 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:32:52 <AutomatedTester> sadym: a question to simonstewart. is there with the remote users
17:33:17 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: devtools assume that they are on the same machine and optimise it
17:33:39 <foolip> q+
17:33:39 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:33:45 <AutomatedTester> ... but a goal for webdriver-bidi is that we may have users that are very far from them
17:34:02 <AutomatedTester> sadym: so we shouldn't add preview?
17:34:14 <drousso> q+
17:34:14 * Zakim sees foolip, drousso on the speaker queue
17:34:37 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: I am meaning that we should not have a lot of calls to be able to deserialise items because we are sent remote objects
17:34:41 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:34:41 * Zakim sees foolip, drousso on the speaker queue
17:34:45 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:34:45 * Zakim sees drousso on the speaker queue
17:35:19 <AutomatedTester> foolip: if we are optimising of fewer round trips then adding length and other items is good
17:35:32 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:35:32 * Zakim sees drousso on the speaker queue
17:35:39 <AutomatedTester> ack drousso
17:35:39 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:36:12 <AutomatedTester> drousso: to qualify what simonstewart said... There are cases where we will need to do that and we can't get around that
17:36:42 <jgraham> q+
17:36:42 * Zakim sees jgraham on the speaker queue
17:37:01 <simonstewart> q+
17:37:01 * Zakim sees jgraham, simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:37:03 <AutomatedTester> ... and we need to avoid sending too much data because the protocol might not allow it
17:37:12 <AutomatedTester> ack jgraham
17:37:12 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:37:53 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: the speccurrently has depth limit and we should keep trying to make sure it doesnt blow up in these cases
17:38:12 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:38:12 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:38:26 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:38:26 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:39:23 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: webdriver http doesnt limit the data sent back, if we don't allow it in bidi we should probably update the original spec to allow where there is overlapping
17:39:26 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:39:26 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:40:14 <AutomatedTester> topic: Event backfilling
17:40:21 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/85
17:40:21 * github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/85 (Allow emitting events on subscription).
17:40:38 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: This is mostly FYI
17:41:08 <AutomatedTester> ... as discussed in the previous meeting that we wanted a way of replaying of events
17:41:43 <AutomatedTester> ... and for console logging (not spec'ed yet) you will get a buffer size of it
17:42:04 <AutomatedTester> ... and this changes the model that has been originally discussed
17:42:45 <foolip> q+
17:42:45 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:42:51 <AutomatedTester> ... this is a request for people to read and review the PR
17:42:52 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:42:52 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:42:57 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:42:57 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:43:42 <AutomatedTester> foolip: is there anyone here that understands this from working on this on their browser? Is there fundamental differences?
17:44:08 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: THis is based how I understood tools to work and tried to improve it slightly
17:44:36 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:44:36 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:45:13 <AutomatedTester> Topic: Navigation
17:45:14 * github-bot Successfully commented on https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/pull/85
17:45:19 <AutomatedTester> github: https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/43
17:45:19 * github-bot OK, I'll post this discussion to https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/43 (Specify navigating a browsing context).
17:45:50 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: This is the next feature that I want to work on
17:46:06 <AutomatedTester> ... we have previously discussed this at TPAC
17:46:18 <AutomatedTester> ... and I have documented it in the issue
17:47:11 <AutomatedTester> ... since this is async we can allow people to return when they see fit
17:47:45 <AutomatedTester> ... and we will likely need to define lifecycle steps for this
17:49:02 <foolip> q?
17:49:02 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:49:03 <simonstewart> q+
17:49:03 * Zakim sees simonstewart on the speaker queue
17:49:10 <AutomatedTester> ... and a question I have for Googlers. What is a loader id and what is it's lifecycle? THis is in CDP and blink and it's very different to requests
17:49:35 <AutomatedTester> ack simonstewart
17:49:35 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:50:11 <AutomatedTester> simonstewart: 2 things: We are wanting to do network interceptions
17:50:43 <AutomatedTester> ... 2nd thing: It would be good to reformul.ate the page loading strategies from Webdriver http in the bidi
17:51:20 <AutomatedTester> jgraham: THe way that I imagine this working is that we would have a way of setting these
17:51:24 <foolip> q+
17:51:24 * Zakim sees foolip on the speaker queue
17:51:49 <AutomatedTester> ... and people will say when the call returns and they can go from there
17:51:52 * jgraham I assume these meetings are mostly an excercise in ensuring that AutomatedTester's short term memory is working well
17:52:02 <AutomatedTester> ack foolip
17:52:02 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:52:12 <foolip> https://source.chromium.org/chromium/chromium/src/+/master:third_party/blink/renderer/core/loader/document_loader.h;l=245;drc=2ac64302ae161cd6b5e4b1254497bdf5fd6d3415
17:52:24 <AutomatedTester> foolip: I don't know what loader id is and found this...
17:52:35 <AutomatedTester> ... it seems to be attached to a browsing context
17:53:16 <AutomatedTester> ... and it looks to have been around for a while and could be in webkit for the inspector is
17:53:42 <AutomatedTester> ... and I don't know the smart questions to ask for will help ask questions to the relevant people
17:53:46 <AutomatedTester> q?
17:53:46 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue
17:54:18 <jgraham> RRSAgent: make minutes v2
17:54:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate https://www.w3.org/2021/02/10-webdriver-minutes.html jgraham
17:55:06 <foolip> thanks AutomatedTester!
17:55:06 <jgraham> RRSAgent: bye
17:55:06 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
17:55:17 <jgraham> Zakim, bye
17:55:17 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees have been jgraham, AutomatedTester, sadym, drousso, brwalder, Honza, jdescottes, shengfa, whimboo, cb, foolip, simonstewart, jimevans
17:55:53 <AutomatedTester> how do we get github bot to close out
17:56:13 <AutomatedTester> github-bot:   end topic
17:56:14 * github-bot Successfully commented on https://github.com/w3c/webdriver-bidi/issues/43
17:56:27 <jgraham> Ah, forgot about that one :)
17:56:27 <AutomatedTester> thanks for joining folks
17:56:37 <jgraham> Thanks for chairing/scribing!
17:57:42 <simonstewart> +1